You're definitely in a hard position. You certainly don't want to anger any of the course management since you need to maintain a good relationship with them, but you also don't want to send your customers to a course that's in poor shape and have them mad about the conditions. That's a tough line to walk.
I've moved more clients off poorly conditioned courses than any other Golf Director in the last 25 years. Moving clients off poorly conditioned courses is one thing, I do it constantly when I get poor condition reports, but posting a bad review is a totally different conversation.
Conditions are subjective, I have reports from 4/27 and 5/2 that says the greens are fine at Grande Dunes, but I also have several that contradict that. So there is that NASTY word "expectations". About 18-20 years ago there was a huge argument on the forum. One guy played Tidewater at 8:36 the other guy played it at 9:03. One said he didn't know courses like this existed, or could be kept in that kind of shape. He literally said there wasn't a blade of grass out of place. The other guy said it was a piece of crap, poorly conditioned, he wanted his money back and was very very disappointed. One guy is a Turkey Farmer and plays $20 courses in the country at home all and splurged to play Tidewater. The other guys is big time Maryland Chiro, had 12 offices and is a member at Congressional. It was filed under the " can't please them all" heading.
Brian Noblin
Myrtle Beach Golf Talk
My direct line at work 888-272-7263
I forwarded Art's critique to the Head Pro along with a few remarks from our Client review Software (some ok, some similar to Art's)
He immediately told me to come play asap .... so Minta and I are taking another couple out Sunday to play. Will report back on Monday, even thought I hate doing it, because the course operators get mad at me. I'm frank and honest and look at things from my clients viewpoint more than from their view point which is more focused one with administration. That's why I don't post reports anymore. I have to do business with these people on the daily. It's hard to ask people to join marketing programs, and the likes, when you're posting poor condition reports about their course. So to avoid that uncomfortableness, conflict of interest, since it hampers my ability to do business. But in this case, I'll report what I find ...The pro must not be too proud of the greens. They are green, when you look at them.
They are way more bumpy than a typical aerated green with full cores and top dress.
They need work. I didn't think they needed replacing.
Art, I wouldn't be so RUDE as to ask him if he's proud of the greens, that's not very professional - frankly somewhat negative and argumentative. That's not how I want my relationships with the course Pro's and General Managers to be. So I ask what the problem is, what they are doing to correct it and when they think it will be back to normal and react accordingly. Sometimes that's includes moving groups and sometimes just informing groups and letting them make the decision.
I'll be teeing it up Sunday at 1:00 and will report back. Good, bad or indifferent ...
Brian Noblin
Myrtle Beach Golf Talk
My direct line at work 888-272-7263
That subjectiveness is a big deal when reading course reviews/reports and I've definitely mentioned that to people before. One person's mediocre conditions are another person's excellent conditions depending on what they're used to (as you said). I read a review of one of the Sea Trail courses a few years ago that said it was in great shape -- played it two days later and thought it was a bit below average.
It's why I always like to see multiple reports before coming to any conclusion. Can still be wrong for personal expectations, but at least if you've got 8 people saying it's bad (or 8 people saying it's good) and only one or two people saying the opposite, there's some strength in numbers.
@bnlongdriver
Your approach to asking about conditions is correct.
I actually asked what happened and was told routine maint at Grande Dunes.
When I ask grass related questions, pro shops tend to get defensive, even
if a simple question like what kind if grass. They assume it's a complaint.
I played 13 Myrtle Beach courses (peers not my muni or CC) on my trip and
Grande Dunes was easily in last place in the greens category. This included
sister FGI courses, TPC, KN, Pawleys, plus Oyster Bay + Sandpiper.
Golfers can understand if there is a machine malfunction, wrong chemical, etc.
They will get madder if brushed off about it.
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Good points. If pro shops are honest about conditions I can accept that. If they try to fluff me off with lame excuses and assume I know nothing about conditions/agronomy that's when I get my back up.
Same for me. I get mad when someone try to fool me on the course conditions. They do it just one time. They will never see me again after that. You can not do that in respect for your clients.
''It's just golf, let's have fun''
5/9/21 I went to play Grande Dunes soley based on the poor reports posted here. It was posted that the greens were terrible last weekend, then I got 3 or 4 phone calls telling me the greens are terrible and they needed me to move them. Even had one guy tell me the needed to close to replace their greens. The greens look fine, roll fine, accept shots fine, no bumps no humps, no aerification holes, no top dress, no colored fertilizer, no painted greens, not a complaint to the Pro Shop for 3 days - no nothing just normal greens. I rolled up to the first 3 greens with my phone in hand ready to video some bad greens. I never took a single video, cause there was no reason too.
This weekend, 5/9/21, the Grande Dunes Greens are just fine.
Art, if you are still in town I will pay for you to go play Grande Dunes today, then report back.
Brian Noblin
Myrtle Beach Golf Talk
My direct line at work 888-272-7263
Good points. If pro shops are honest about conditions I can accept that. If they try to fluff me off with lame excuses and assume I know nothing about conditions/agronomy that's when I get my back up.
It's subjective - What is good shape to one person is crap shape to another, what's great to one person is only good to another. One of my acquaintances is a Member at Wachesaw Plantation, a member owned course. We play together every 3 or 4 months, he laughs at course conditions "at these resort courses". Just like the story I told in this thread of 2 people playing the same course within 30 minutes of each other with VASTLY different experiences, rating and reviews. One said it was CRAP and wanted his money back, the other didn't know it was possible it have a course in that good of condition.
Who is right and who is wrong? For 97.5% of the people Tidewater is fan-damn-tastic but for the 2.5% that are members at Congressional, and own double digit Chiro offices in the MD, DC AREA, then maybe it wasn't to their standards. So I told everyone that Tidewater is in excellent shape.
Brian Noblin
Myrtle Beach Golf Talk
My direct line at work 888-272-7263
5/9/21 I went to play Grande Dunes soley based on the poor reports posted here. It was posted that the greens were terrible last weekend, then I got 3 or 4 phone calls telling me the greens are terrible and they needed me to move them. Even had one guy tell me the needed to close to replace their greens. The greens look fine, roll fine, accept shots fine, no bumps no humps, no aerification holes, no top dress, no colored fertilizer, no painted greens, not a complaint to the Pro Shop for 3 days - no nothing just normal greens. I rolled up to the first 3 greens with my phone in hand ready to video some bad greens. I never took a single video, cause there was no reason too.
This weekend, 5/9/21, the Grande Dunes Greens are just fine.
Art, if you are still in town I will pay for you to go play Grande Dunes today, then report back.
Thanks for investigating. I played Grande Dunes on 5/3/21. There was a big
thunderstorm and big rain that night. They had fertilizer down, so that rain
and the warmth afterwards must have been just what the greens needed.
That's why they say conditions can change fast in MB.
I didn't expect the greens to improve that quickly.
I didn't think about going back just to look, after the rains. I am home now.
At least I was correct when I said they don't need new greens. 🙂
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Wachesaw Plantation is a really fun golf course, but I find that comment a bit funny. I played at Wachesaw last year in the spring, and it was in great shape -- but it wasn't in any better shape than Caledonia or a couple of other courses I played down there the same week.
Private clubs aren't automatically better than any public course, and I play a decent amount of golf at nice private clubs. Caledonia has actually often been in better shape than some of the privates I play.
@bnlongdriver Thanks Brian.....Good to get the scoop from you. We're playing there Thursday as you know.
GolfdawgZ
GolfdqawgZ
@uncgolf Wachesaw is not a private club.....They allow outside play. That tells me the membership cannot support the club so they have to bring in play to add revenue. A true private club is supported by their membership and does not all outside play unless you are guest of a member and escorted by that member. Not bragging but I belong to such a club and will put our courses up against any in Myrtle Beach - the layouts may be better but the conditioning is superb....and we're just one county up in North Carolina.
GolfdawgZ
GolfdqawgZ
Are you thinking of Wachesaw East?
I'm pretty sure Wachesaw Plantation does not allow any outside play (I played with a member), but I could be wrong. Even though they are both called Wachesaw Plantation, I don't think they're really affiliated and the private members club is completely separate -- a bit like the Grande Dunes Resort Course and the Grande Dunes Members Course before they opened the Members Course up to some limited outside play.
I think Wachesaw Plantation and the Reserve (Pawley's Island) are the only fully private courses in the Myrtle area since the Surf, the Dunes, and the Members Club at Grande Dunes allow some outside play (unless the Surf has gone back to fully private). I guess there's DeBordieu as well, but that's almost all the way down to Georgetown. There's also St. James Plantation near Southport -- I've played the Players Club and the Members Club there, but not the Founders or the Reserve. I've also played the Reserve Club in Pawley's at least a dozen times, as well as Porter's Neck and Cape Fear in Wilmington and a bunch of other fully privates around NC, SC, and Georgia.
My point was only that a private club doesn't automatically have better conditioning than a public course. They often do, but it's not guaranteed. Caledonia matches up well with most private courses in terms of overall condition on a day to day basis, but that's also why it costs $100+ to play.
